Saturday, February 12, 2005

Web page design woes

The past few days I've been learning HTML/CSS.
For the unlearned, they are the two languages you use to make a webpage.
It's not like I didn't know it before. Or even that I didn't know a LOT about it.
It's just that I've been going about it all the wrong way.

It seems for example, you don't actually use tables to layout a page! You use <div>s! And you use CSS to setup the layout. Also, theres a whole lot of tags and attributes that are deprecated, and shouldn't be used. And worse, some are beyond deprecation, they're just gone and you certainly shouldn't use those!

These discoveries may sound like the ravings of a noob, but I have in fact created at least two major websites: Summit Online and EMS Relto.
The problem is if you run them through the W3C validator, they are in fact, not valid.

The W3C validator is very strict, it forces you to make your pages 100% perfect. (If you choose "strict"). So what did I do? First of all I spent a whole lot of time reading the complete HTML and CSS specifications. Then I studied how to make pages using divs, etc, which I will certainly do in future. Then I spent a whole day updating the template software I wrote to fit the "correct" strict standards. Then I finally opened up EMS Relto and spend a couple of hours making all 31 pages valid, quite an effort.

I run them all through the validator, and bingo, they are 100% perfect (granted, not strict, but transitional. Still I have the right to bear the W3C logo, it tells me, "to show your readers that you have taken the care to create an interoperable Web page". And I have.
Only problem is, when I upload it to geocities,
1) It puts a whole lot of code at the top and bottom of my page. This is understandable, it has to display ads. Unfortunately the bastards have NOT taken the care to create an interoperable ONE PATHETIC LINE so all my pages are now INVALID again as soon as I upload and there's nothing I can do about it.
2) The minute I upload, someone at geocities thinks the world would be a better place if, instead of having a little square in the top right corner, if we had a huge panel on the right hand side which squashed up my page, made it into a hideous frames page and prevented you from seeing the whole screen.

ICK!!! This has happened before, and went away. So I'm crossing my fingers that it will go away again.
(If anyone knows anything about why they have changed it, please let me know by posting a comment!)
Here's the site with 100% beautiful HTML 4.01 Transitional code except the crap geocities added.

On a more cheerful note, I must redirect everyone's attention to The CSS Zen Garden. This wonderful site shows off the power of CSS. If you click the links on the right, it shows you the exact same HTML page, with different CSS styles. Wow, can they do some amazing changes to what is exactly the same root page! If you are using Firefox (highly recommended), you can turn off styles to see what its like without any CSS by choosing View -> Page Style -> No Style.
(Or in any browser, just Save As the page and choose HTML only, then open up your local copy).

If you are serious about web design, it's highly recommended that you download the HTML and a couple of styles to see how the Zen Garden grows.

Here's one of Jeremy's favourites:
Lionel Hutz: "Oh no! We've drawn Judge Schneider! ... He's had it in for me ever since I kinda ran over his dog."
Marge: "You did?"
Hutz: "Well, replace the word 'kinda' with 'repeatedly', and the word 'dog' with 'son'."

Now... leave a comment! Blogger have upgraded the comment system, and it looks great! (No doubt they've been working very hard on the HTML and CSS to bring it up! It's not valid - I just ran it and its got 44 errors, but hey, at least they're confident enough to ask for XHTML 4.01 STRICT! O_O)

12 Comments:

At 1:56 am, Blogger Andrew said...

yikes

 
At 1:57 am, Blogger Andrew said...

nice new site btw

 
At 2:27 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hehe funny quote This blog just got better too, now it's a forum :)
Hey Andrew

 
At 3:30 am, Blogger Eat_My_Shortz said...

OH MY GOD Jeremy posted!!!
That's about the last person I expected!

Good to see you up and active mate, sorry about last night.
(For everyone else, warcraft :( )

Fo the record - it's always been a forum. They just changed the commenting form.

 
At 8:27 am, Blogger Toria/Deb said...

I'm sorry to hear all your work on EMS Relto is for Naught. That sucks. Geocities, you suck big-time. I hope this doesn't offend the owner of this blog ;) but it's the truth.......discouraging. I'm not rushing to make my pages absolutely conformist.

 
At 8:30 am, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes GeoCities ads are annoying! In fact I don't see why their server can't automatically parse the page to check for/insert an ad tag which you could place where you wanted it ... ah well:(
Have fun with CSS! And yes it really does make you look at HTML in a very new way;)

 
At 10:51 am, Blogger Tim Cuthbertson said...

OOh new comment page!

But, it's very screwed for me... the "leave your comment" box is like 10 characters long...

Sadly, geocities don't give a crap about your page, they used to even have stupid javascript errors in their ad code :/

 
At 1:25 pm, Blogger Eat_My_Shortz said...

Tim - yeah the comments box is screwed for me now too. Last night it was up on the top right.
I guess Blogger hasn't quite got their CSS skillz up to scratch yet either ;)

Thanks for the replies guys. I hope this is just some sort of maintenance thing or something (since it reverted last time) and it goes back. Then I guess the compliance isn't too big a deal since browsers accept it anyway, and at least I know I've taken the care to make an interoperable page.

 
At 2:22 am, Blogger Toria/Deb said...

Yes, the comment box is squashed onto the left for me too right now. Only about 10 characters wide.

Well Matt, take pride that you did it right and it's Geocities that is wrong. Great luck sent too on your novel. ((((((Matt))))))

 
At 8:53 pm, Blogger Eat_My_Shortz said...

Hi Greg. Nice to see another Myst/LOTR fan. Thanks for everyones comments on this most discussed topic in my blog's history!

With regards to the new comment system - it seems its still screwed for this blogpost but the newer ones are ok. Go figure?

 
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